53 Packard Patrician factory AC

[MoparEarl]

Hello all,
I have a 1953 Packard Patrician 400 Touring Sedan with super rare factory AC. It's a trunk mounted evaporator. The system is by Frigidaire and the almost exact system was used in the 53 Cadillac. The compressor has no clutch and drives all the time unless you remove the belts. There was a solenoid valve bypass circuit when the system was off or temperature satisfied. When off or satisfied, the refrigerant would bypass the EVAP.

The original compressor is locked up. I'm replacing it with a Sanden 4616 and replacing the original tube/fin condenser with a modern parallel condenser. The largest I can fit with an electric cooling fan controlled by a trinary switch. I'm also going to remove the original receiver tank and use a modern receiver dryer. I will also remove the frame mounted dryer filter can. The system will be charged with R134A. The original was R12 at 7lbs. It will be a modern pressure cycling with the original thermostat controlling the compressor.

The evaporator is tube/fin with an adjustable expansion valve with carbon dioxide filled bulb, not R12. Will this work with R134A or do I need to try and find a replacement that will be compatible with R134A? I wouldn't know how to adjust the original valve. I plan to fill the system by superheat/subcooling method. But if the expansion valve is off, that's going to be problematic to charge. Also the original expansion valve is 70 years old. I don't know if it's going to work.

I am going to thoroughly flush the lines that run front to trunk and the EVAP. The compressor, condenser and hosing will be new. The lines running front to truck and the EVAP/expansion valve are the only things that will be original.

I tried to add pictures of the system but files are too large and not going to bother with resizing them.



Thanks,
Earl

[tbirdtbird]

You have a most interesting project at hand. I believe Packard was the first to offer auto AC. It is a shame that you want info from us but won't take a few minutes to resize your pics. I am of the opinion that the expansion valve will work as is. There are several other highly knowledgeable techs on here, and I would await their opinions. This may take some patience on your part since we are not in the peak of AC season, they don't come by as often.
Strongly suggest that you forget about charging via subcooling/superheat; that only works for stationary systems such as residential.
There is a way to charge a system of unknown capacity ( I would not go by the 7 lbs OEM charge) and there is a thread on here that details how to do it. I believe it was posted by Bohica, and a search will surely find it. Just this past summer it was mentioned in a thread by Andrew Vanis, but he has several threads. You will find it.

Please let us know how this works out.

[MoparEarl]

Thanks for your reply tbirdtbird. Yes, you definitely can charge an automotive AC by superheat/subcooling. Lots of information/videos on the net. Correct, can't charge to spec on a system that will be mostly modified. The receiver tank would probably hold over a gallon easy. lol I will search for the other method you mentioned by Bohica.

As far as the pics, they aren't really needed. So why spend the time to resize a hand full of pictures? The forum should allow larger pics. Been years since I had a forum reject normal sized pics. The pictures would of just been for fun for ppl to see an old vintage system. Most of the system is getting removed/modernized.

Yes. Packard was the first to offer air conditioning option. 1940 to 1942. Then came back late in 1953. 1955 they moved to an in dash system.


Thanks,
Earl

[bohica2xo]

Looks like most of what you are keeping is the OEM evaporator and air handling.

Let's start with the obvious question. Is the Original Straight 8 engine in the car?

Is the car converted to 12v?

Lots of things affect the finished product with a project like this.

The Cadillac of that era used a Hot Gas Bypass valve. Is there one on this car?

[MoparEarl]

Looks like most of what you are keeping is the OEM evaporator and air handling.
Correct, maybe the original expansion valve.

Let's start with the obvious question. Is the Original Straight 8 engine in the car?
Don't see how this matters, but yes. The original 327 cubic 4 barrel carb, 180hp.

Is the car converted to 12v?
No, 6v positive ground. Sanden only needs 7.5v to engage the clutch. But will be using a step up 6v to 12v converter for the clutch.

Lots of things affect the finished product with a project like this.
Such as?

The Cadillac of that era used a Hot Gas Bypass valve. Is there one on this car?
No it uses a bypass circuit with a solenoid valve and check valve, exact same parts as a 53 Cadillac. Those are getting pulled out as the compressor will cycle by pressure as a normal modern compressor. The compressor has an Internal pressure relief as well. I may add a coil freeze control switch as well. But don't think it will be needed.

Thanks,
Earl

[bohica2xo]

Well, the engine matters. We can get two pages into a system like this and find out it is an LS swap. Wasted time. BTDT

Engine speed range and drive sizes matter. If you don't have enough compressor volume the system will be awful.

The TXV could have virtually any refrigerant gas in it. All you need is the proper piston size and spring to balance the pintle for flow vs temperature.
Co2 will work. If the valve is ok as is. If a replacement is needed it will be a case of determining the best fit and size.

You may want to consider hosting your pics somewhere and posting links. Pictures are always helpful.

[MoparEarl]

Well, the engine matters. We can get two pages into a system like this and find out it is an LS swap. Wasted time. BTDT
Nope, all stock and all origin but the carpet and a repaint. If I was modernizing the car, it would get in dash AC.

Engine speed range and drive sizes matter. If you don't have enough compressor volume the system will be awful.
The original compressor has a large drive pulley. So the modern compressor with its much smaller pulley will rotate faster. I don't think I remotely have a drive speed issue compared to the original compressor. Unfortunately I can't find any specs for it. I would imagine a 1953 compressor would be far from efficient compared to a new Sanden 4616.

The TXV could have virtually any refrigerant gas in it. All you need is the proper piston size and spring to balance the pintle for flow vs temperature.
Co2 will work. If the valve is ok as is. If a replacement is needed it will be a case of determining the best fit and size.
My plan was to use the original valve. Just didn't know if the original valve meant for R12 with CO2 in it would operate correctly. If that's a go, then I will try the original valve and replace it if it has an issue. They don't make stuff that good anymore. Not to mention adjustable. Is a bulb style expansion valve testable? Can I cool the bulb and get the valve to move to see if it mechanically functions? Not sure if you can look in the ports to see anything change. I'm accustomed to block expansion valves and orifice tubes.

You may want to consider hosting your pics somewhere and posting links. Pictures are always helpful.
What pics do you need? The expansion valve? The EVAP box or core? My main question was if the expansion valve was compatible. I had planned to charge by superheat/subcooling method but someone mentioned there is a better method. Appears to be called plateau method? Which I need to research. With R134A not sight glass friendly and not having a clue what the charge amount would be, need to go on the wildside.lol

Thanks,
Earl

[tbirdtbird]

Per Bohica,
"Engine speed range and drive sizes matter. If you don't have enough compressor volume the system will be awful."

Your original engine is a long-stroke low revving engine, typical of the day. All the torque is down low and red line is probably 3K at best. Any more than that and you can kiss a rod goodbye.

We custom installed a modern Sanden in a 1947 Stude PU with a flathead straight 6. The crank pulley was 6" diam, and as far as I know most if not all modern comps are 5" diam pulleys. That is nearly a 1:1 ratio. (1.2 ratio). Modern comps need revs to function as you expect. The system performed very poorly given that the revs seldom got above 2K, and did not work at all in traffic. We had to hand fab a crank pulley out of a John Deere mower pulley 8" in diameter, (1.6 ratio) and we had to incorporate the harmonic balancer in that. We could have benefitted from a larger crank pulley but 8" was all that would fit.

[MoparEarl]

Peak hp is at 4k rpm. I will measure the crank pulley and the original compressor pulley. Several have driven modern compressors on the OE packard crank pulleys with no issue with add on under dash units. A club member has a 54 car like mine that he put a modern compressor on but kept the rest of the system original and running R12 and performance is good he says. The Sanden rpm range starts out at 700 if I recall the specs and can handle like 6k or such. I believe it also has higher intermittent rpm it can handle.

The Sanden 4616 is an "enhanced" version that performs as a 13 cubic inch vs the standard 9.5 cubic inch version. I have no idea what cubic inch the original compressor is. An old school A6 is 12.5 cubic inch. Thought about using an A6 as it would look more period correct. But they have a lot of brackets to try and fab to the engine would be a pain. They also love HP.


Thanks,
Earl

[bohica2xo]

Tbird:

I have a 3208 CAT project in the shop right now with the same problem. 5.2 inch pulley and that diesel is on the governor @2800. Idle is 550. "Poor cooling" LOL A vintage C cab, and the fan is mounted on the end of the crank just to make it more fun.

Earl:
Yes a pic of the TXV if you need to replace it

The TXV can be tested with the sensing bulb in ice water. Can't promise, but most valves show movement through a port when removed from the system.

An educated guess at the evaporator capacity - what diameter are the suction and liquid lines at the evaporator?