1994 honda Civic complete AC system rebuild - questions about sp-10 capacity and how to add to system???

[Fordmansk64]

1994 honda civic Ex
1.6l vtec
New after market evaporator
New after market expansion valve
New lines and o rings
New after market condensor and fan
New after market relay
New after market dryer
New OEM Sanden Compressor
Using authentic sanden sp-10
Using r134 with no sealer or leak dye


I just finished installing all new hard parts listed above and have the sp-10 and r134 on hand.

Purchased a decent vacuum pump and I'm going to use an autozone loaner guage set.

The compressor tag says it came with 130cc / 4-1/3 fl oz of sp-10 in it and everything else is bone dry of any pag oil.

I can't find any references that tell me exactly how much total sp-10 should be in this system. My hood decal is missing and all references(Haynes and factory service manual) I can find only refer to how much oil to add to each separate component as each one is replaced seperately:
*condensor 20cc or 2/3 fl oz.
*evaporator 45 cc or 1-1/2 fl oz.
*line or hose 10 cc or 1/3 fl oz.
*receiver 10 cc or 1/3 fl oz.
*compressor 120cc or 4 fl oz. - volume removed from old compressor, but I have no idea how much oil the old compressor had in it.

I'm going to drain and measure how much oil the compressor actually has in it.

Assuming the compressor has 130 cc / 4-1/3 fl oz. in it:
* can someone tell me how much more sp-10 I need to add?
* how and where do I add the additional oil without any special tools?
* can I open up one of the easily accessible lines and use a medicine syringe that measures in cc's to add the additional oil to one or more components?

Before I add the additional oil I'm going to use my gauges and pump to pull a vacuum and wait 45 -60 minutes to see if I have a leak anywhere. Assuming I don't, I'll release the vacuum and then I'll add the additional oil. Then pull another vacuum and wait another 45-60 minutes then it's time to add r134a.

The r134a capacity is 21-23 oz. If I use 12 oz. cans, I'll add the first can and then was planning on using a postal scale to help me measure out the other 9-11 oz. Does that sound feasible? Is there a better way?

Any other tips or tricks would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Steve in Ky - and no I didn't marry my sister or cousin and yes I do have indoor plumbing!

[tbirdtbird]

1. Which model Sanden do you have
2. Is your vacuum pump run by an electric motor
3. Given all the work you have done, I would not vacuum less than 1 hr.
4. any additional oil can be added before you vacuum. Not sure why you want to vacuum twice. You cannot vacuum out oil.
5. "I'm going to drain and measure how much oil the compressor actually has in it." THIS IS A GOOD IDEA. Be sure to rotate the comp shaft several times to get all the oil out. It is also very smart to never use sealer.
6. Detecting a small leak under vacuum would be very hard to do. Also please know that a system can be vacuum tight but not pressure tight.
Knowing this, unless you are planning to buy a sniffer, I would suggest you add dye to be able to determine leaks later. Many factory ACs come with dye.
7. If you wanted the reassurance of no leak before you charge, you could deep vacuum, break vacuum with a small amount of 134 (this is allowed) perhaps up to 20 psi, and then use a sniffer to check your entire system. On certain complicated systems I have done this myself.
8. We assume the condenser is PF and mounted very close to the rad with air dams all around

9. This is a start. I am going to defer to the heavy lifters here to give additional advice.

[Cusser]

The r134a capacity is 21-23 oz. If I use 12 oz. cans, I'll add the first can and then was planning on using a postal scale to help me measure out the other 9-11 oz. Does that sound feasible? Is there a better way?

Kentucky? You're in La La Land if you think you can actually fill 23 oz. from two 12 oz. cans....21 oz. possibly...

[JohnHere]

Welcome to our Forum.

The information that I have for your car, which has an original R-134a A/C system (the 1993's had R-12), specifies 19 ounces net weight of R-134a and 5 fluid ounces of PAG-46.

According to the tech information you posted, Honda seems to lean toward the "oil balancing" method. If you follow that procedure, install 3-1/2 ounces into the drained and empty compressor, and 1/2-ounce each into the new condenser, evaporator, and receiver/dryer. You might want to rotate the compressor main-shaft 10 or 12 times by hand before you start the system for the first time to (arguably) prevent the compressor from "slugging."

As tbirdtbird suggested, add the oil to the system now before you assemble everything and evacuate it because the vacuum pump won't remove any oil, and you'll save having to evacuate a second time.

As for the components, remove the caps on the R/D and install it last to minimize the entry of ambient contaminants. If you're at sea level or thereabouts, evacuate down to at least 29.9 InHg for a minimum of two hours to ensure removing all the air and moisture from the system. I sometimes evacuate overnight if possible.

You might want to purchase your own Manifold Gauge Set (MGS) as well. You won't know the history of a rental MGS and won't know whether or how much it might have been used and possibly abused. Some posters here have mentioned that their rentals wouldn't hold vacuum and/or wouldn't connect properly to the system's ports. This site's sponsor stocks high-quality MGS's if you decide to buy your own.

[JohnHere]

can I open up one of the easily accessible lines and use a medicine syringe that measures in cc's to add the additional oil to one or more components?
Before I add the additional oil I'm going to use my gauges and pump to pull a vacuum and wait 45 -60 minutes to see if I have a leak anywhere. Assuming I don't, I'll release the vacuum and then I'll add the additional oil. Then pull another vacuum and wait another 45-60 minutes then it's time to add r134a.

I forgot to mention earlier, but if you've already assembled the system, yes, you can open a connection and inject the oil.

Don't release the vacuum, though, because doing that will just draw into the system unwanted air and moisture. Once you evacuate it, you should only charge the refrigerant into the well-held vacuum.

[Fordmansk64]

The r134a capacity is 21-23 oz. If I use 12 oz. cans, I'll add the first can and then was planning on using a postal scale to help me measure out the other 9-11 oz. Does that sound feasible? Is there a better way?

Kentucky? You're in La La Land if you think you can actually fill 23 oz. from two 12 oz. cans....21 oz. possibly...

I realize I'm a noob in this forum but I definitely know how to wrench on just about everything - from weed eaters to M1 tanks!.

A/C is new to me and something I've always left to the experts. With this car I figured I'd try to learn how to rebuild a system and recharge it properly, for two reasons: to save some money - army pension only goes so far and to challenge myself.

Maybe I read you wrong Cusser - like the name - but when someone asks me for help I normally give them all the information I can versus being snarky like you were. Here in Ky snarky is synonymous with smart ass! but is often just good humor. Since we just met, so to speak, I'll assume you were leaning more towards humor versus the smart ass, although your moniker leaves some doubt

So, I guess what you left out was that when you use 12 oz cans you won't get 12 oz of r134a out of each can and into the system and that I'll need a 3rd can? Also left out any info on how I might be able to tell how much I got out of each can and or using the guages or some other method to tell when I have enough r134a in the system.

Since you didn't really offer any constructive information, well indirectly you did imply that i'd need a 3rd 12oz can, I think I'll work with someone else. Assuming I don't get flamed or banned by a moderator. guessing I won't since the moderators seem to be more pleasant and helpful than you.

Have a good one.

[tbirdtbird]

Right, the neoprene seals in the hose ends are usually shot in the loaners, and seldom replaced. Many have said they could not pull a good vacuum, and then they think the vacuum leak is in their own system.
A manifold makes a very nice addition to your tool box. Tim's prices here are very good for good quality parts and supplies.
Some will say, "well I am only going to use it once".
The mere fact that you are working on your own system now indicates that before you know it, you will be working on another system for yourself or a friend or family member

WOW RE: comments on Cusser. Personally I try not to annoy any kind of help on a forum. He is quite knowledgeable and his wording is his way of emphasizing that no one can get a full 12 oz out of a 12 oz can. That is why we suggest using a 30# jug and a refrigerant scale.
Then too, the consultants on any forum are volunteering their time and knowledge, in their own way. This is sometimes overlooked.

The best you could hope for is by weighing the cans ahead of time (they don't all have a full 12oz in them) on perhaps a postage scale (I have not done this myself, so not sure how well it would work), and weigh after you have discharged the can.
I myself would make every attempt to install the entire charge as liquid thru the hi side port , with the compressor off, obviously. Charging by vapor is tedious and doing so by liquid into the hi side ensure the comp has plenty of refrigerant (AND thus oil) when it first starts.
Charging by the little cans also makes it challenging to NOT get air into the system while switching cans. And be sure to bleed the air out of all your hoses before you add any refrigerant

Good luck

And I will add another suggestion..... If you really want to learn mobile AC (which is much harder than ppl think it is), I would step back thru the archives and read every thread. There is a lot of knowledge here, from some very smart ppl

[Fordmansk64]

1. Which model Sanden do you have
2. Is your vacuum pump run by an electric motor
3. Given all the work you have done, I would not vacuum less than 1 hr.
4. any additional oil can be added before you vacuum. Not sure why you want to vacuum twice. You cannot vacuum out oil.
5. "I'm going to drain and measure how much oil the compressor actually has in it." THIS IS A GOOD IDEA. Be sure to rotate the comp shaft several times to get all the oil out. It is also very smart to never use sealer.
6. Detecting a small leak under vacuum would be very hard to do. Also please know that a system can be vacuum tight but not pressure tight.
Knowing this, unless you are planning to buy a sniffer, I would suggest you add dye to be able to determine leaks later. Many factory ACs come with dye.
7. If you wanted the reassurance of no leak before you charge, you could deep vacuum, break vacuum with a small amount of 134 (this is allowed) perhaps up to 20 psi, and then use a sniffer to check your entire system. On certain complicated systems I have done this myself.
8. We assume the condenser is PF and mounted very close to the rad with air dams all around

9. This is a start. I am going to defer to the heavy lifters here to give additional advice.

Hello tbirdtbird, thanks for helping me, very much appreciated!

1. TRS090 Sandan compressor
2. Yes, it's an electric vacuum pump. Has good reviews on amazon, fingers crossed!
3. Check, will do.
4. a)Any idea on exactly how much additional oil I need to add? b)Use the amounts specified in the service manual for each component and add those amounts to each component individually? c)Since I have dry lines do I add the 1/3 oz for each line directly into each line or to the nearest component or can I add a total amount for all the lines to one component? d) will add all the oil as per your instructions and then vacuum - understand there's no need to vacuum twice.
5.once I drain the compressor as best I can how much do I add back? Hypothetically, If I drain All 130cc out do I add 130cc back or use the service manual amount - 120cc?
6. Can't afford a sniffer so are you talking about compressor oil dye - The kind you use the special light and glasses with? If so do I need a special dye for the sandan sp-10 I already have or can I buy a bottle of pag46 that has the dye in it and add say 1/3 oz of it? Guessing I shouldn't mix the pag46 with the sp10 so I should look for sp10 compatible dye?
7. Guessing a sniffer is cheaper than 3 cans of 134 so might have to consider doing this. Can you explain how to "break vacuum" and add the small amount of 134 please?
8.yep, it's parallel flow, mounted next to the radiator and has its own fan. I mounted the oem rubber seals onto the after market condensor and they seal it nicely to the core support.

Please chime in on anything you have time for?
Thanks again tbird!

[tbirdtbird]

OK, there is a lot of typing here to be done, so I am gonna take this in small bites.
1. This forum link discusses dye:
https://autoacforum.com/messageview.cfm ... adid=15165
2. SP10 is fully compatible with PAG46. They are the same, except SP10 is so-called DEC (double end capped) oil, which is a superior oil. However the small amount of dye charge you need will make no difference.
The parts stores all seem to sell Interdynamics products. My problem with them is that they put so-called ICE32 in everything they make. This is an entirely unnecessary additive, and I avoid it. The only things that are supposed to be inside an AC system are refrigerant, oil, and dye. Nothing else. In my opinion ICE32 is snake oil.
You can get PAG46 with dye online, and perhaps Tim (the forum owner) from this site also has it. He is always helpful by phone. He has more stuff than shows in his online catalogue.
3. We have 2 industry experts on this forum, Detroit AC, and GM tech, who will tell you that at the factory, all the oil needed for a system is already in the comp before it is installed in the car. Clearly the factory assembly line does not have time to fiddle-faddle various amounts of oil into each and every component. The only component that needs oil is the comp. True, some of that oil will begin circulating with the 134, but it all starts out in the comp. Some comps even have a sump. When I install a bone dry system, that is what I now do. JohnHere, who is an excellent technician (MACS certified) gave the oil and 134 charge specs above.

more later

[Tim]

Nothing wrong with Ice32 in general. It's just a wear additive. Most oils have them, just not sold as a product that will save the life of a compressor.